Madou Gathering 8 ~the day that no one cares~

[flowersofnight]

Yeah never mind, I totally misread XD
It seems like they're going by the secret total sales numbers though according to the infobox further down on the page.

 

[Geisha]

Well, that would make sense since older CDs will have sold more copies over time. ::kisaki::

 

[Camuflagem]

I think it'd be bad. People are already tired of Mana recycling stuff. And it's not just scape.

Go to youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29xZgUUB ... r_embedded and see what some of the top comments say

here, i'll post for you

Wow, nothing new for a couple of years, and THIS is what he releases? He's just rehashing the same amateurish, poorly written metal backed up by cheap sounding keyboards. I don't think there is one element of this song that cannot be found in at least one of his old songs. I used to be a big fan, and I still enjoy listening to Nocturnal Opera every once in a while, but it's all been going steadily downwards from there in my opinion. I wonder for how long he will keep writing the same songs.

This post has 100 thumbs up.

I'm still waiting for something REALLY new, not the same sounds again and again...

this one has 82 thumbs up.

As if YT is a measure for quality or representative of people's opinions. No forum is. On one German forum people complained that D+SECT (which is what the YT complaints are about) is too different and that MdM doesn't sound like MdM anymore. On another people complained that it isn't different enough. And on Scape most people liked it, which surprised me since most Scapers tend to pretty much hate MdM nowadays. Which isn't a statement in itself either because I know many people who don't post here anymore because they felt they constantly had to justify themselves for liking MdM to those who only hang around because they "still have hopes" (which vary wildly from person to person, so they're unlikely to be fulfilled, which again means more complaints). The Hamsterdance song has 13,255 likes on YT, does that make it a memorable artistic achievement?

When Mana does something different, like with BtG or Kanon, people complain that it is too different. When he does a variation of his signature style people complain that it isn't different enough. Poor man can't win. And it isn't just Mana, with other bands people also complain that they change styles too often or not enough. The only halfway informative measure of popularity is sales figures and according to Oricon D+SECT didn't sell any worse than MdM's other albums.

That said, I think a CD with only reworked old stuff would be a good idea. I don't mind a re-recorded song here and there and Mana hasn't actually done many compared to some other artists, e.g. Hizaki, but it would be an elegant way to get all the old songs they still play out there in one go.

I don't really agree with the notion that just because you got different reponses from YT and two forums you have to disregard the YT comments. I think all of them do matter, since they were made by people who listen to m10m, not some random person who only listen 1 or 2 songs. That said, I find as much valid the ones at youtube , scape and that one german forum. As for the positive response on this forum, yes there was, but at the same time people didn't really feel like it was a great achievement , imo, like in the level of older albums. I at least didn't think so, it was ok, but not that great, i was honestly expecting more. There is also this site last.fm that keeps track of what people listens, D+Sect and Dixanadu are the most recent M10M releases, but people there listen more to Dix Infernal and Nocturnal Opera. I also consider this as a kind of response from the listeners,because usually, for most artists, the most recent material are the ones that have more listeners.

What i am trying to say is that even if you think it's ok for Mana to continue with this, fine that's your opinion, but you also have to look around and see that there are also many people who are not happy with the current direction of Mana's project. Does it mean that he has to change it?No, because that's his music, and he must do what he wants, but i just think that if he continues on this direction more and more people won't be interested in his music. Probably you won't care about that, but something is wrong when long time fans that love his work start to not like it so much. That's it, he does what he wants, he is not a commercial artist to be around trying to please everyone, but you really need to stop and wonder sometimes. It's not like Mana is never wrong. And just because you guys like Mana's music so much, it does not mean that it shouldn't be improved or diversified. And people are wrong to expect more from him?I say no, because when you used to be a leader and one of the main composers of such talented band as Malice Mizer, people will always expect something really good from you, and i don't blame them.

 

[Phantom Pabulum]

Well, how many copies are we really talking about when we get down to 100+ 'th place on the indies chart? XD I imagine the random factor plays in a bunch - maybe someone's car broke down on the way to buy "Shadows Temple" and he skipped it, and that explains the difference.

Huh? I was merely wondering, if two albums appear in the charts once and one gets to #113 and the other to #116, how the #116 one end ups on top.

That would mean that the total amount of CD sales in Japan have been generally dropping as a whole, I guess :/

 

[Geisha]

I don't really agree with the notion that just because you got different reponses from YT and two forums you have to disregard the YT comments. I think all of them do matter, since they were made by people who listen to m10m, not some random person who only listen 1 or 2 songs. That said, I find as much valid the ones at youtube , scape and that one german forum. As for the positive response on this forum, yes there was, but at the same time people didn't really feel like it was a great achievement , imo, like in the level of older albums. I at least didn't think so, it was ok, but not that great, i was honestly expecting more. There is also this site last.fm that keeps track of what people listens, D+Sect and Dixanadu are the most recent M10M releases, but people there listen more to Dix Infernal and Nocturnal Opera. I also consider this as a kind of response from the listeners,because usually, for most artists, the most recent material are the ones that have more listeners.

What i am trying to say is that even if you think it's ok for Mana to continue with this, fine that's your opinion, but you also have to look around and see that there are also many people who are not happy with the current direction of Mana's project. Does it mean that he has to change it?No, because that's his music, and he must do what he wants, but i just think that if he continues on this direction more and more people won't be interested in his music. Probably you won't care about that, but something is wrong when long time fans that love his work start to not like it so much. That's it, he does what he wants, he is not a commercial artist to be around trying to please everyone, but you really need to stop and wonder sometimes. It's not like Mana is never wrong. And just because you guys like Mana's music so much, it does not mean that it shouldn't be improved or diversified. And people are wrong to expect more from him?I say no, because when you used to be a leader and one of the main composers of such talented band as Malice Mizer, people will always expect something really good from you, and i don't blame them.

You always argue that way where MdM is concerned because you share the critics' opinions, and pick the comments and sources that suit your argument and disregard those who don't, but as soon as you disagree with the critics you get all defensive and say their opinions aren't relevant:

The other thing is that if I remember correctly he assumes people don't find him and/or his music really important or so he said in a interview once. And then there is the issue that the last time he released a album it was completely bashed into the ground be a lot of his Japanese 'fans' because the sound was so different to "Honey Vanity". So I do kind of understand the guy is insecure but as someone already said after almost 4-5 years of no releases and 1 000.000 session bands...time to slap someone on the ass to wake up!

I wouldn't have thought that someone like Kozi would feel taken back by critics done by some fangirls.... i mean. If you are a musician, you can't always please everyone, so it is natural that there will be people criticizing, but argumenting that it was bad, because it did not sound like Honey Vanity is so so dumb, that he should have thrown all these kind of comments in the trash. I mean, you can even not like his music, but at least come up with some good arguments, and don't make yourself sound dumb. Kozi does not deserve this. He needs to know that he IS appreciated by MUSIC fans, his music IS good, and he is a TALENTED artist.

I understand that Kozi might felt bad if his fans didn't like his work, but these people who only want music like Honey Vanity are not real fans. Move on, play more music, and find new fans.

Double standards much? :/ Like I said, Mana also gets criticised when he does try something really different, like BtG or Kanon. Not to mention those who want him to write "proper metal" music and those who want him stop MdM altogether and resurrect MM. Must be very confusing for him to work out what his "fans" want.

 

[Berserk]

It makes me sad that Pageant is the best-selling single and DIXANADU is the worst-selling album. Personally, I just hope that Mana doesn't let the sales influence him too much and that he doesn't feel compelled to make music a certain way just to keep the pot boiling... But let's face it, that might be exactly what he has to do.

When I saw the byline for DIXANADU trumpeting that it has "more harpsichord and organ" than before and the CDJapan description calling it a "return to their dramatic, symphonic, and aggressive, and melodic roots" it felt like it was being apologetic for Beyond the Gate's change in style or at least recognizing and kowtowing to Nocturnal Opera's popularity with the fanbase. Mana shouldn't ever have to apologize or kowtow to anyone (even his fans) and I hope he doesn't think he does.

 

[Camuflagem]

I don't really agree with the notion that just because you got different reponses from YT and two forums you have to disregard the YT comments. I think all of them do matter, since they were made by people who listen to m10m, not some random person who only listen 1 or 2 songs. That said, I find as much valid the ones at youtube , scape and that one german forum. As for the positive response on this forum, yes there was, but at the same time people didn't really feel like it was a great achievement , imo, like in the level of older albums. I at least didn't think so, it was ok, but not that great, i was honestly expecting more. There is also this site last.fm that keeps track of what people listens, D+Sect and Dixanadu are the most recent M10M releases, but people there listen more to Dix Infernal and Nocturnal Opera. I also consider this as a kind of response from the listeners,because usually, for most artists, the most recent material are the ones that have more listeners.

What i am trying to say is that even if you think it's ok for Mana to continue with this, fine that's your opinion, but you also have to look around and see that there are also many people who are not happy with the current direction of Mana's project. Does it mean that he has to change it?No, because that's his music, and he must do what he wants, but i just think that if he continues on this direction more and more people won't be interested in his music. Probably you won't care about that, but something is wrong when long time fans that love his work start to not like it so much. That's it, he does what he wants, he is not a commercial artist to be around trying to please everyone, but you really need to stop and wonder sometimes. It's not like Mana is never wrong. And just because you guys like Mana's music so much, it does not mean that it shouldn't be improved or diversified. And people are wrong to expect more from him?I say no, because when you used to be a leader and one of the main composers of such talented band as Malice Mizer, people will always expect something really good from you, and i don't blame them.

You always argue that way where MdM is concerned because you share the critics' opinions, and pick the comments and sources that suit your argument and disregard those who don't, but as soon as you disagree with the critics you get all defensive and say their opinions aren't relevant:

The other thing is that if I remember correctly he assumes people don't find him and/or his music really important or so he said in a interview once. And then there is the issue that the last time he released a album it was completely bashed into the ground be a lot of his Japanese 'fans' because the sound was so different to "Honey Vanity". So I do kind of understand the guy is insecure but as someone already said after almost 4-5 years of no releases and 1 000.000 session bands...time to slap someone on the ass to wake up!

I wouldn't have thought that someone like Kozi would feel taken back by critics done by some fangirls.... i mean. If you are a musician, you can't always please everyone, so it is natural that there will be people criticizing, but argumenting that it was bad, because it did not sound like Honey Vanity is so so dumb, that he should have thrown all these kind of comments in the trash. I mean, you can even not like his music, but at least come up with some good arguments, and don't make yourself sound dumb. Kozi does not deserve this. He needs to know that he IS appreciated by MUSIC fans, his music IS good, and he is a TALENTED artist.

I understand that Kozi might felt bad if his fans didn't like his work, but these people who only want music like Honey Vanity are not real fans. Move on, play more music, and find new fans.

Double standards much? :/ Like I said, Mana also gets criticised when he does try something really different, like BtG or Kanon. Not to mention those who want him to write "proper metal" music and those who want him stop MdM altogether and resurrect MM. Must be very confusing for him to work out what his "fans" want.

Ok, it's really great that you try to find old posts by me, only to try to pass me by as some huge hypocrite. Wow. Anyway, first of all, Geisha, The problem here is that Kozi's music never suffered from being stagnant. While this is the problem with Mana's project. Kozi changed his music and many people didn't like it, and they just stopped supporting him, many fans did this. While Mana keeps the similar pattern we are all tired to discuss about, and now he is also losing many fans. But their situations are totally different, and the lack of interest from many fans came from totally different REASONS.

Like seriously, don't try to bring this to a personal level, because i am not who you are trying to portray me as. And this can be confirmed in my post since i SAID THAT MANA DOES NOT NEED TO CHANGE HIS MUSIC IN ORDER TO APPEAL TO HIS FANS. Just like i said in Kozi's post. You know, it's not like I'm a freaking Mana hater. I am his fan, but i just can't look passively at all this and just agree with everything he does. Like i said before, sometimes you just need to look to the bigger picture and wonder.

 

[Lempicka]

Mana also gets criticised when he does try something really different, like BtG or Kanon. Not to mention those who want him to write "proper metal" music and those who want him stop MdM altogether and resurrect MM. Must be very confusing for him to work out what his "fans" want.

lol what I learnt at school is "never ask the client what he wants, he doesn't know"
so... yeah, I hope the contradictory feedback they get doesn't give them headaches

 

[Astral Romance]

Mana also gets criticised when he does try something really different, like BtG or Kanon. Not to mention those who want him to write "proper metal" music and those who want him stop MdM altogether and resurrect MM. Must be very confusing for him to work out what his "fans" want.

lol what I learnt at school is "never ask the client what he wants, he doesn't know"
so... yeah, I hope the contradictory feedback they get doesn't give them headaches

he has all the rights to make music HE likes as well as we have all the rights to tell our opinions about the new stuff from him. ^_^. So i think both Mana and criticissing fans are right xD

 

[voixdinferno]

...and those who want him stop MdM altogether and resurrect MM...

Me Me Me!!!!!!!! ..... and! I agree with you guys xDDDDDD

 

[Martine]

It makes me sad that Pageant is the best-selling single and DIXANADU is the worst-selling album. Personally, I just hope that Mana doesn't let the sales influence him too much and that he doesn't feel compelled to make music a certain way just to keep the pot boiling... But let's face it, that might be exactly what he has to do.

I don't think that nowadays we can base ourselves only on sales to say an album is appreciated or not. Thank you Geisha for the links to the Oricon ^^ but I really think they mean nothing. At least, not so much ^^
A lot of people download the Mp3s of an album without buying the CDs. So, besides the fact that I think Mana doesn't have to try to please people (it doesn't matter who they are !) but should better do what he wants, what he feels; I think, on top of that, that it would be nonsense that he let the sales influence him.
Nobody knows better than us what is good for us. I mean that he knows better than anyone else what is good for him ^^

 

[Xanadu]

I think what Tiny says is true: One of the big "appealing" points about Mana (at least to me) was the feeling that he doesn't try to meet expectations of his fans like crazy.

There really are enough people who follow every trend like a lost puppy and who change in every possible direction just to get/ keep their fans.

And whatever most musicians do seems to be wrong anyways.
People didn't like BtG because it was to different/electronic etc. Now they are complaining Mana's sound doesn't vary enough.
Whatever he does, someone won't like it.
And of course everyone is free to like and dislike whatever he/she wants. But I rather see Mana stay true to what he likes and wants to do then to see him try to "fit" fan's expectations.

 

[MissUMana]

I can see why Berserk feels sad about DIXANADU being the worst-selling album, because I too have a soft spot for that particular album.

And while I agree that you shouldn't have to fear criticizing an artist even if he's someone whose work you love and respect, I hate people who call themselves "fans" being frankly disloyal.

 

[Martine]

What do you call to be disloyal in that case ? I don't get that word in art.

 

[MissUMana]

In this particular case, Mana started his solo project saying he meant to create a world of his own, that his music would express, which is not the same as writing songs that are not part of a larger whole. So if you call yourself a MDM fan, you can't turn your back on him and not be disloyal to a certain extent . But of course it's no important matter, since most fans change their mind depending on which way the wind is blowing.

 

[Martine]

In this particular case, Mana started his solo project saying he meant to create a world of his own, that his music would express, which is not the same as writing songs that are not part of a larger whole. So if you call yourself a MDM fan, you can't turn your back on him and not be disloyal to a certain extent . But of course it's no important matter, since most fans change their mind depending on which way the wind is blowing.

Maybe but it's not because someone likes the world Mana created and still creates that that person likes everything in it. It's not to change our mind depending on which way the wind is blowing, it's to be honest with ourself. Every fan of MdM has some aspects of Mana's world that he likes less or totally dislikes. It's not to turn our back on him. It's normal I think. For myself, I think that to be disloyal would be to compliment him for every aspect of his world, even for those we dislike. An artist would be really full of himself/herself to think that his/her fans will like every aspect of his/her art.
It's the same for everything, not only in art and especially in this case the world of Mana.

Just my point of view ^^

 

[Camuflagem]

I also don't think the sales should be a guide for him or us to analyse this situation, we can't measure why the sales dropped. Was it because most people who were already fans didn't like the album enough to buy it? Was it because these people don't feel like buying any physical units anymore, just digital stuff? Maybe the bad economy?

 

[Garnet in the Eden]

since we're looking at sales in japan, how much does he actually promote his albums there? it really doesn't feel like anything significant, which would explain the chart places. and it's not the most commercial of music so you can't really expect it to chart high.

 

[Blue Moon]

Mana has his own label M:N so he can creates music the way he wants to and avoid being dictated by the music industry or fans. I don't see how any +/- comments could sway him...he's been like that since day one.

 

[Martine]

Mana has his own label M:N so he can creates music the way he wants to and avoid being dictated by the music industry or fans. I don't see how any +/- comments could sway him...he's been like that since day one.

Yes and no. Because if he creates stuffs that people don't like, he won't sell them. So, except if he is so rich that he can loose all money he wants or if he is like me and thinks that money isn't important at all (après nous, les mouches !) or if his artistic career is just because he likes it, something besides another professional life; he must keep an eye on his incomes or M:N will go bankrupt.

Nevertheless, I really hope he will continue on his own way and won't pay to much attention to the music industry and what fans ask ^^