Eve of Destiny??

sailorKa

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mort wrote:
Flatliner wrote:
Despite my better judgement, I contacted him in regards to wholesale purchasing some stuff for Wreckords.com.
So if he actually does send us the stuff, people who missed out on the CD can order it from us, safely and with piece of mind.
Fingers Crossed.
But if you do that, aren't you funding this person's scam? :/ I understand people wanting to own an EOD CD, but it would be much better for fans to just think of this release as a bootleg, because this is effectively what it is.

Most importantly you really won't be doing the music scene any favours by allowing CCP to carry on operating in this way. These CD problems are in all probability the major reason EOD gave up. The last thing EOD fans should be doing is helping Alfred make more money so he can go on and ruin more indies bands' careers. If you're really sad about EOD's current cessation of activities then I believe you ought to think again before you give the person responsible for it a pat on the back and a full wallet, no? :/
But it isnt the fans' fault that CCP tricked both them & the band.
IF EOD went all " ::hora:: " because of this and decides(decided?) to go on a "hiatus" of sorts, wouldn't it make them feel appreciated for another label company to actually TRY AND SEND THE RECORDS to FANS without the need of harrassing [the label]?

Besides, it COULD work. All Alfred wants is money. All Flatliner wants is to give the CDs to the fans before EOD dissapears completely from the face of earth - which is also the fans' wishes.
Alfred gets money for some CDs he doesnt even want or need and us fans get the CDs some of us already paid for MONTHS ago. :\ =)

Contacting EOD would be better, maybe. But as things are now they are either sore about the CCP incident ::cop:: and not trusting much of anyone right now or just not interested in releasing anything in the near-future.

I think what Flatliner did is the correct thing for now. =)

--k
 

Geisha

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I really want this CD but I'd never give a penny to this Alfred guy. As far as I'm concerend he's a criminal, who cheated EOD (and some of their fans) out of their money, and I don't want to reward him for his actions. I downloaded the album and that's going to have to be enough for me. Of course EOD won't receive any earnings from that but at least Alfred won't either.
 

Flatliner

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Zaxon

I think it's safe to say most of you are snapping to judgement.
I think it's also safe to say none of you have a clear picture of what actually happened in the whole EoD fiasco.
Though I myself do not know all of the facts, this is what I can present to you.

Alfred IS an idiot.
Celtic Circle Productions does have a reputation for pre-announcing albums that, in most cases, are never delivered.
That in itself is not a crime, it's poor management.
The intention to deliver these albums to the public WAS there. This I've confirmed with one of CCP's former distributors, who I've obtained CCP titles from before. CCP, however, folded once again before the CDs could be delivered. The only one they managed to get out was the AmGod box, from what I remember.
And I have a copy of that sitting right here, so CCP was operating normally for a short period.

Part of the reason CCP fell apart was a botched deal with SPV.
SPV was supposed to be one of the 2 main distributors for CCP product worldwide, but ended up either kiboshing the deal, or delaying on it so long that it put too much financial strain on CCP. A record label without distribution is dead in the water in a lot of cases, depending on their debts, number of employees, advances paid, production costs, etc.
This is why he's sitting on a stack of EoD CDs. They were never distributed, and has been attributed as a "Ghost Release."

In regards to EoD, they made some money on this. They must have. Artists get paid advances when they sign to a label. EoD would have been paid an advance for this album, unless for some strange reason they agreed to an EXTREMELY poor contract. It's extremely unusual for there not to be an advance. The only case I can think of off the top of my head is Depeche Mode, who agreed to 50/50 on a Handshake back when they signed on with Mute.
So EoD would have gotten some money for the advance to do the album. They may not be getting paid any of the back-end payments that are in most contracts, but that's because the entity the contract was signed with seems to have dissolved.

So, yes, Alfred is left to sell all these EoD cds he's sitting on. If I had like 1000 CDs sitting in my living room, that's what I'd do.
And in my estimation, it's fair of him to do so. Consider this.
He's Paid EoD the advance to release the album. He's paid the cost of printing the CD. He's paid for a little advertising. He's paid for solicitation materials. So he's put a fair amount of money out to get these CDs made.
Then, all of a sudden his distro deal evaporate and he has no way to sell the CDs. Now he's eaten all the costs, and his income dissolves.

Wouldn't you sell the CDs?

Of course you would. You paid for them.

-------
Now, for some of the other stuff:

The EoD order Debachle, with dealing directly with Alfred. Some people got their CDs after a long period of time. Some people got nothing. There's no defense for that. Alfred didn't live up to his end of the agreement. It's easy to theorize on WHY, or WHAT could have caused complications, but in business there's no such thing as an excuse. You have to deliver, especially when you've collected payment. He didn't. But, this is already well documented.

So, hopefully now after reading all that, some of you will evaluate the facts and see things in a more logical light.

Yes, Alfred is a total Dingus. He has absolutely no idea how to run a record label. He's a poor businessman. He's probably lazy too.
Did he rip EoD off? There's no clear cut answer to that. None of us know the details of their contract. I think EoD got something out of this. Sure, they didn't get it all, but I think Alfred ended up getting even less. It's not like he's living in a palace now. In fact, he probably has a leaky ceiling.

I am a collector. Possessing MP3s and a home-printed label doesn't cut it for me. That's like printing out a picture of the Mona Lisa, then building your own frame for it. It's not nearly as satisfying as having the real thing. Even if it means walking through some shadey tunnels, my end goal is to own a genuine product. To own the fabled, phantom EoD CD. Its elusiveness only makes me hungrier for it. As a CD collector, music retailer and DJ, knowing my collection has a hole in it makes me crazy.
I know I'm not alone in these feelings.

I'm not trying to force these CDs on anyone. It's a personal interest of mine to obtain a genuine copy. It's an interest of some of my friends and customers as well. If not buying one satisfies some sort of moral itch inside of you, then that's just as valid as my reasoning. Buying a CD isn't going to help EoD. Not buying one isn't going to help EoD either. Other people will buy them. Eventually they'll all dry up, and Nervous and Innocence will no longer exist. Wether or not you get a relic for that lost civilization is up to you.

EoD seem to be calling it quits. Kozi probably realized he's doing better for himself with his solo career. CCP is probably only one factor in EoD's demise. One botched EP isn't enough to kill a band, unless the band had weak resolve to begin with. They could easily have gotten the full album on another label, or self released it. Thousands of bands call it quits. EoD is just one more. Just like Malice Mizer.
 

mort

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Flatliner wrote:
I think it's safe to say most of you are snapping to judgement.
I think it's also safe to say none of you have a clear picture of what actually happened in the whole EoD fiasco.
With all due respect, but I don't see how it's safe to say either of those things.

Celtic Circle Productions does have a reputation for pre-announcing albums that, in most cases, are never delivered.
That is not all CCP has a reputation for.

That in itself is not a crime, it's poor management.
Taking orders for albums that are never released and not refunding the money is a crime. Pretending that you never received the money in the first place is also a crime. Announcing festivals that feature bands that have never even heard of you and preselling tickets that you never refund falls also, I think most would say, in the category of unlawful activity. Not to mention deliberately misleading people by assuming a false persona in a public forum.

The intention to deliver these albums to the public WAS there.
At a later date when EOD no longer pursued their interests in the deal, sure. This is so far the only explanation.

This I've confirmed with one of CCP's former distributors, who I've obtained CCP titles from before.
And if one of Alfred's friends said it ergo it must be true.

And I have a copy of that sitting right here, so CCP was operating normally for a short period.
Well of course. Otherwise how would they convince people that they were really back in business. They'd have to get at least one thing out.

Part of the reason CCP fell apart was a botched deal with SPV.
SPV was supposed to be one of the 2 main distributors for CCP product worldwide, but ended up either kiboshing the deal, or delaying on it so long that it put too much financial strain on CCP.
Ah, but I see that you don't actually know what happened do you? All you know is that something went wrong with SPV. So it's not that you have any actual knowledge is it? You know that SPV was to blame, because Alfred said that SPV was to blame. He, in fact, said it on Side Line's forum after he was forced to admit that neither CDs nor festival were really happening. Blame it on evil SPV who wouldn't distribute the CDs. And how is it their fault that he delayed all his alleged releases for months on end? Or that he wouldn't mail out CDs to people that paid for them and still does not to this day? How is it their fault that he lied to people for months about why he wasn't sending out CDs, including things like 'I'm not in the office' or 'my grandmother's dog died'. SPV though a major distributor of independent labels are by no means the only distributor. What happened to the other ones CCP were using? And why is it, that if this was all true, CCP did not give CDs to EOD to sell at lives, or why did they not set up an online store themselves, but are selling on eBay like any other respectable bootlegger.

In regards to EoD, they made some money on this. They must have. Artists get paid advances when they sign to a label.
In which universe is this true of small labels and in which particular planet in that universe? I want to move there. Me and all of my friends.

EoD would have been paid an advance for this album, unless for some strange reason they agreed to an EXTREMELY poor contract.
Let's not get into why EOD would have signed an extremely poor contract, but let's just say that it is very likely that they might have. And even if the contract was OK and CCP broke it, what were they going to do? File a lawsuit from Japan? Contracts are irrelevant in cases like these.

He's Paid EoD the advance to release the album. He's paid the cost of printing the CD. He's paid for a little advertising. He's paid for solicitation materials. So he's put a fair amount of money out to get these CDs made.
Regarding the advance, see above. Regarding the cost of printing the CD, EOD have said that they paid for the CD themselves. Are you going to call them liars over Alfred? Regarding advertising - what advertising? Posting as his alternate ego on Side Line's forum? Putting together a couple of flyers? He did nothing. So no, he's put no money into this CD and the money that he may have put I'm sure he's made back by now with all the orders he took for CDs that he never shipped.

Then, all of a sudden his distro deal evaporate and he has no way to sell the CDs. Now he's eaten all the costs, and his income dissolves.
Criminal life does not come without its hardships. Sad but true.

I think EoD got something out of this. Sure, they didn't get it all, but I think Alfred ended up getting even less. It's not like he's living in a palace now. In fact, he probably has a leaky ceiling.
Unless it's the leaky ceiling in jail, I don't see how this is not too good for him. The man is obviously a professional scammer and it's beyond me how you can sit there and defend the poor, misunderstood guy.

I am a collector. Possessing MP3s and a home-printed label doesn't cut it for me.
And here we come to the crux of the mater...

As a CD collector, music retailer and DJ, knowing my collection has a hole in it makes me crazy.
I know I'm not alone in these feelings.
No you're not. The whole JRock culture in the west is based on them. It's about what they want, what they need, what they must have. Be it pictures at lives where photography is not permitted, mp3s of CDs they don't need to buy, bootleg CDs of real CDs they can't afford or even pieces of the bands' own costumes or other property that they stole when the band was kind enough to let them come and talk to them backstage. They also had holes in their collections I'm sure.

I'm not trying to force these CDs on anyone. It's a personal interest of mine to obtain a genuine copy. It's an interest of some of my friends and customers as well.
Of course. And you will just happen to make some profit in the course of assisting these people.

If not buying one satisfies some sort of moral itch inside of you, then that's just as valid as my reasoning.
Morality has nothing to do with it. If one label gets away with treating artists this way, a lot more will try to.

Buying a CD isn't going to help EoD.
No. It's just going to help Alfred and you make illegal money.

Not buying one isn't going to help EoD either.
So let's just go steal everyone's intellectual property and sell it as our own because we won't be doing anybody any harm? Sure.

Other people will buy them. Eventually they'll all dry up, and Nervous and Innocence will no longer exist. Wether or not you get a relic for that lost civilization is up to you.
Very touching. But nothing to do with the point at all.

EoD seem to be calling it quits. Kozi probably realized he's doing better for himself with his solo career.
Once more you are assuming things without any knowledge.

CCP is probably only one factor in EoD's demise. One botched EP isn't enough to kill a band, unless the band had weak resolve to begin with.
Or unless the band has spent all their money touring for three years in the hopes of eventually releasing a CD that will assist them in getting some of it back and end up not being able to continue financially because somebody conned them.

Say what you may, this isn't even about EOD (though I find it very hard to understand how you can call yourself a music lover and want this CD), it's about supporting a criminal who seems to always get away with the same things, because there's people who will fall for it every time, and you have agreed yourself that he is one in another post if I recall. But this is all a very technical discussion that doesn't really have a place here.

What has a place here is that you are trying to promote this CD in a forum that has a long standing tradition of being against any kind of bootlegging or of downloading obtainable releases or even linking to places that might contain very poor versions of them, for the exact reason that they feel it is harmful to the artists. So just do not expect everybody to be happy about what you're doing, that's all.
 

Shinjirugurai

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I wasn't that fond of Eve of destiny, maybe it's because they didn't release all that much but ehh..

I rather see Közi in his solo project, so I guess he'll have more time with that now.
 

Monophobia

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I'm with Geisha on this one, I'm just not going to support this Alfred guy by any means.

I love Eve of Destiny, and I feel terrible for them that this had to happen. The only way I'd purchase the minialbum now is if I knew EOD would be making profit from it. As mort said, I see this release as a bootleg now.
 

Flatliner

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This I've confirmed with one of CCP's former distributors, who I've obtained CCP titles from before.
And if one of Alfred's friends said it ergo it must be true.

Actually, that was mentioned by someone who downright hates him.

And I have a copy of that sitting right here, so CCP was operating normally for a short period.
Well of course. Otherwise how would they convince people that they were really back in business. They'd have to get at least one thing out.

Putting the time and effort into doing one release, for what? Flailing on the next one? 2:1 isn't the greatest scam, even for a guy like this.

Part of the reason CCP fell apart was a botched deal with SPV.
SPV was supposed to be one of the 2 main distributors for CCP product worldwide, but ended up either kiboshing the deal, or delaying on it so long that it put too much financial strain on CCP.
Ah, but I see that you don't actually know what happened do you? All you know is that something went wrong with SPV. So it's not that you have any actual knowledge is it? You know that SPV was to blame, because Alfred said that SPV was to blame. He, in fact, said it on Side Line's forum after he was forced to admit that neither CDs nor festival were really happening. Blame it on evil SPV who wouldn't distribute the CDs. And how is it their fault that he delayed all his alleged releases for months on end? Or that he wouldn't mail out CDs to people that paid for them and still does not to this day? How is it their fault that he lied to people for months about why he wasn't sending out CDs, including things like 'I'm not in the office' or 'my grandmother's dog died'. SPV though a major distributor of independent labels are by no means the only distributor. What happened to the other ones CCP were using? And why is it that nobody else wants to work with CCP? And why is it, that if this was all true, CCP did not give CDs to EOD to sell at lives, or why did they not set up an online store themselves, but are selling on eBay like any other respectable bootlegger.

Never did I say SPV was to blame, nor are they evil. I've had great business with them, and they've been very supportive over the years. However, SPV are the ones that killed the deal. Why? Who knows. Probably because Alfred couldn't get his act together. The intention was never to say SPV are evil, or that they killed EoD. They did kill the CCP Deal. They may have been smart to do so. That much is conjecture.

In regards to EoD, they made some money on this. They must have. Artists get paid advances when they sign to a label.
In which universe is this true of small labels and in which particular planet in that universe? I want to move there. Me and all of my friends.

Earth, it would seem. Any band I've ever known that have signed a deal, even to microscopic labels, have gotten some up-front compensation.


EoD would have been paid an advance for this album, unless for some strange reason they agreed to an EXTREMELY poor contract.
Let's not get into why EOD would have signed an extremely poor contract, but let's just say that it is very likely that they might have. And even if the contract was OK and CCP broke it, what were they going to do? File a lawsuit from Japan? Contracts are irrelevant in cases like these.

They didn't sign a contract in Calcutta. Saying a contract in Germany is irrelevant is just silly.


He's Paid EoD the advance to release the album. He's paid the cost of printing the CD. He's paid for a little advertising. He's paid for solicitation materials. So he's put a fair amount of money out to get these CDs made.
Regarding the advance, see above. Regarding the cost of printing the CD, EOD have said that they paid for the CD themselves. Are you going to call them liars over Alfred? Regarding advertising - what advertising? Posting as his alternate ego on Side Line's forum? Putting together a couple of flyers? He did nothing. So no, he's put no money into this CD and the money that he may have put I'm sure he's made up by now with all the orders he took for CDs that he never shipped.

I'm not calling anyone a liar. If EoD said they paid for producing the CDs, then I'd believe them. I've never seen them say that, but I'll certainly take your word for it. There were some advertisements though. I had one or two magazines that I came across from Europe with a CCP ad in them, and it even had the cover art for N+E, as well as the Amgod boxset.

I think EoD got something out of this. Sure, they didn't get it all, but I think Alfred ended up getting even less. It's not like he's living in a palace now. In fact, he probably has a leaky ceiling.
Unless it's the leaky ceiling in jail, I don't see how this is not too good for him. The man is obviously a professional scammer and it's beyond me how you can sit there and defend the poor, misunderstood guy.

I'm not defending anything. In fact, at one point in my post I even called some of his actions indefensible.


I'm not trying to force these CDs on anyone. It's a personal interest of mine to obtain a genuine copy. It's an interest of some of my friends and customers as well.
Of course. And you will just happen to make some profit in the course of assisting these people.

If I was interested in Profit, I wouldn't be trying this in the first place, as there's a chance my money will just disappear.

If not buying one satisfies some sort of moral itch inside of you, then that's just as valid as my reasoning.
Morality has nothing to do with it. If one label gets away with treating artists this way, a lot more will try to.

I'm sure a lot of labels are dying to follow in Alfred's footsteps. All the way into Chapter 11.

Buying a CD isn't going to help EoD.
No. It's just going to help Alfred and you make illegal money.
Right. I'll change my last name to Escobar. It'll be great.

Other people will buy them. Eventually they'll all dry up, and Nervous and Innocence will no longer exist. Wether or not you get a relic for that lost civilization is up to you.
Very touching. But nothing to do with the point at all.
It has everything to do with the point. Regardless of what happened in this whole fiasco, I still think they'd want people to enjoy their CD. They may not want people to try getting it from CCP, but unfortunately, that's the only source that exists. If I knew of any other, ANY other, I'd be all over it. Sadly, I do not.


EoD seem to be calling it quits. Kozi probably realized he's doing better for himself with his solo career.
Once more you are assuming things without any knowledge.
He's put out 2 full albums, some singles, and is gigging more often.
It doesn't take much knowledge to call that better. Although if you want to take exception to every single thing I say, I guess this comment fits the theme.

CCP is probably only one factor in EoD's demise. One botched EP isn't enough to kill a band, unless the band had weak resolve to begin with.
Or unless the band has spent all their money touring for three years in the hopes of eventually releasing a CD that will assist them in getting some of it back and end up not being able to continue financially because somebody conned them.

Most artists don't make any money off their CDs to begin with. The live shows are the lifeblood. Sure, it would be nice to have a CD to be promoting on tour, but I Digress. That's a whole other can of snakes.


Say what you may, this isn't even about EOD (though I find it very hard to understand how you can call yourself a music lover and want this CD)
Seems pretty simple. I love music. I'd like to hear the CD.
People didn't stop buying Pretty Hate Machine after TVT boned Trent Reznor. I have yet to meet a NIN fan that doesn't own it.
I'd like to be able to own a piece of work that EoD worked to put together. I'd like to see the artwork they chose, the lyrics (if any) and photos (again, if any.) It may even be their only produced legacy.


it's about supporting a criminal who seems to always get away with the same things, because there's people who will fall for it every time, and you have agreed yourself that he is one in another post if I recall. But this is all a very technical discussion that doesn't really have a place here.
He's been to jail, yes. I never bothered to ask specifics, but you're right, time in jail makes you a criminal.


What has a place here is that are you trying to promote this CD in a forum that has a long standing tradition of being against any kind of bootlegging or of downloading obtainable releases or even linking to places that might contain very poor versions of them, for the exact reason that they feel it is harmful to the artists. So just do not expect everybody to be happy about what you're doing, that's all.

I don't think it could be fairly considered a Bootleg, or a poor version. It was officially produced. In fact, you said the band themselves even paid to have them produced, so that could hardly be considered a Bootleg.

As I said before, this is hardly a move motivated by profit.
Hell, I'd be more than willing to give any money made on the CDs to Ash and Kozi. I know a lot of people were excited about this release, and still would be if they knew they could get it. I am one of those people. Right off the bat, it seems like you've got some Vendetta against me. Fair enough, perhaps you misread my intentions. I'm not trying to excuse Alfred, and I'm not trying to turn this into the downpayment on my next car.
I just wanted to allow people to get this phantom release if possible.
It is a sticky situation, because yes, that ass will gain off any sort of transaction between me and him. If the moderators here feel that the CD is considered contraband, or that my efforts don't seem genuine and lean on the side of crass profiteering, then I'll certainly stop and scrap the whole idea. We've always gone out of our way to be a shop that can help people get the music they love. I also personally go out of my way to be accessible to people.
You've gone out of your way to voice your opinion, as hostile as it may have seemed, and I have enjoyed it. It was pretty long, and clearly showed we do have something in common, and that's Passion for our Musical interests. It's also given me some new things to consider, and I've managed to learn something.
They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
My intention was to help, but there would indeed be a Devil to Pay.
And Seriously, if anyone has contact with either Kozi or Ash, I'd be more than happy to work out a way to try and get CDs to sell for THEIR benefit. It could be my Mardi Gras coin for the music biz.
 

Geisha

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Flatliner wrote:
In regards to EoD, they made some money on this. They must have. Artists get paid advances when they sign to a label. EoD would have been paid an advance for this album, unless for some strange reason they agreed to an EXTREMELY poor contract. It's extremely unusual for there not to be an advance. The only case I can think of off the top of my head is Depeche Mode, who agreed to 50/50 on a Handshake back when they signed on with Mute.
So EoD would have gotten some money for the advance to do the album. They may not be getting paid any of the back-end payments that are in most contracts, but that's because the entity the contract was signed with seems to have dissolved.

So, yes, Alfred is left to sell all these EoD cds he's sitting on. If I had like 1000 CDs sitting in my living room, that's what I'd do.
And in my estimation, it's fair of him to do so. Consider this.
He's Paid EoD the advance to release the album. He's paid the cost of printing the CD. He's paid for a little advertising. He's paid for solicitation materials. So he's put a fair amount of money out to get these CDs made.
Then, all of a sudden his distro deal evaporate and he has no way to sell the CDs. Now he's eaten all the costs, and his income dissolves.

Wouldn't you sell the CDs?

Of course you would. You paid for them.
A reminder about the events surrounding the release of Nervous and Innocence:

http://www.scapeforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1144
http://www.scapeforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3533

In particular this, which was EOD's response to someone (not me) complaining that CCP wouldn't send out the CD he/she had already paid for:

Eve of Destiny wrote:
Eve of Destiny,We have informed to the label about this problem repeatedly.
However,We have got no answers to this problem from the label.
Since it is in the situation whose negotiation does not have the answer from
a label and is impossible,
adequate judgment is difficult for us now.

The way things stand, EOD will also suffer only many damages.
EOD has completed work for the CD (with our own money) before fairly.
It is the present fact that the label cannot be carrying out a contract and
its promise.

for all the past acts of EOD receive only loss and not to end it,
please understand that we have to act very carefully.


best regards.
y.tsukamoto (managements)
Eve of Destiny
In a nutshell: Alfred was sitting on the ready pressed CDs and happily taking people's money but not shipping them out until he was threatened with legal action (and even then he only sent them to those people who had some legal recourse because they had paid by PayPal, the others never received anything but lies and excuses). EOD never received copies of their own CDs to sell at lives, and now that they are gone and the dust has settled he is trying to make money on the CDs that EOD have financed by flogging them "exclusively" in his eBay webshop.

You can call EOD naïve or stupid but Alfred is a liar and a thief and, no matter how much we may want this CD, I don't think it's a good idea to place our personal interests above those of EOD and other artists, who may be naïve or desperate enough to sign up with CCP in the future. If you want to help EOD you could try and find them a new record deal with a decent, respectable label but, sadly, I think it's too late for that.
 

mort

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Geisha posted while I was typing this, so I've repeated some things, sorry.

Flatliner wrote:
Actually, that was mentioned by someone who downright hates him.
But unless it was someone close to him, how would they actually know what his intentions were?

Putting the time and effort into doing one release, for what? Flailing on the next one? 2:1 isn't the greatest scam, even for a guy like this.
The EOD CD was not the only thing that he set out to release. And you keep forgetting the biggest scam which was the festival.

Never did I say SPV was to blame, nor are they evil. I've had great business with them, and they've been very supportive over the years. However, SPV are the ones that killed the deal. Why? Who knows. Probably because Alfred couldn't get his act together. The intention was never to say SPV are evil, or that they killed EoD. They did kill the CCP Deal. They may have been smart to do so. That much is conjecture.
Alfred was the one who tried to make SPV out as the evil ones at the time. In particular, if you're interested, he said that they had a change in management and the new people in charge did not like CCP's sales figures so they froze the deal.

Earth, it would seem. Any band I've ever known that have signed a deal, even to microscopic labels, have gotten some up-front compensation.
They have been lucky. Every small band I am personally familiar with have started (and in some cases ended) their careers with labels who have given them nothing but extremely bad treatment. I have personally worked for a label that not only expected bands to pay for their own studio time and hand over finished products, it also never gave them any money back from sales. There are far too many stories like this, but I was hoping they were a thing of the 80s and 90s.

They didn't sign a contract in Calcutta. Saying a contract in Germany is irrelevant is just silly.
How easy would it be for you to enforce a contract you made in Japan? Realistically speaking, how much money, time and energy would you be able to spare to pursue a similar claim? For most people this would be a task not worth the gain. Most people can't even afford to sue their next door neighbours without extreme financial hardship to themselves.


I'm not calling anyone a liar. If EoD said they paid for producing the CDs, then I'd believe them. I've never seen them say that, but I'll certainly take your word for it.
I wouldn't ask you to take my word for it:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev ... essage/998

There were some advertisements though. I had one or two magazines that I came across from Europe with a CCP ad in them, and it even had the cover art for N+E, as well as the Amgod boxset.
I got some magazines with CCP inserts myself, bought from MNS here in the UK. They didn't look very expensive.


I'm sure a lot of labels are dying to follow in Alfred's footsteps. All the way into Chapter 11.
You'd be amazed.

It has everything to do with the point. Regardless of what happened in this whole fiasco, I still think they'd want people to enjoy their CD.
Would they? They wouldn't even allow their affiliates to release low quality live mp3s online as part of promoting them. Their management was very specific on the subject on many occasions. I'm not so sure they would agree with you there.

They may not want people to try getting it from CCP, but unfortunately, that's the only source that exists. If I knew of any other, ANY other, I'd be all over it. Sadly, I do not.
This can also be said of many releases that are out of print and there's no way of getting any more. You just let it be. You don't go buy the Russian bootleg.

He's put out 2 full albums, some singles, and is gigging more often.
It doesn't take much knowledge to call that better. Although if you want to take exception to every single thing I say, I guess this comment fits the theme.
I don't think Kozi was ever after any kind of success with EOD. He's said many times that he just likes playing music. In fact the smaller the venue and the more obscure the audience the more he seems to enjoy it. The number of session bands he has been involved with is testament to that, as is his current involvement with Death Attack Chainsaw and the low profile he keeps with his solo work. I think you are very wrong about this one, especially in the way you presented it as fact.

Most artists don't make any money off their CDs to begin with. The live shows are the lifeblood.
This really depends, but even so, EOD were in dire need of a bigger audience in order to start making any kind of money, be it from merchandise or the lives themselves and without a release how would they get this audience? I don't believe that this was the one and only reason why they've apparently given up for now, but it must have been quite demoralising for them.

I'd like to be able to own a piece of work that EoD worked to put together. I'd like to see the artwork they chose, the lyrics (if any) and photos (again, if any.) It may even be their only produced legacy.
You can have all that with a good quality bootleg too, but by buying the bootleg you are harming the artists and the scene, which as a result means that you end up with less released music and less artists willing to even give it a go. And herein lies the badness.

I don't think it could be fairly considered a Bootleg, or a poor version. It was officially produced. In fact, you said the band themselves even paid to have them produced, so that could hardly be considered a Bootleg.
A third party is making money out of someone else's spiritual property without their consent. Is it not a bootleg? Ok, i will accept another word for it.

Right off the bat, it seems like you've got some Vendetta against me.
I don't recall having ever disagreed with you on anything before. What makes you say something like that?

Fair enough, perhaps you misread my intentions.
Your reply to Geisha's post and - I thought - mine did seem to suggest that you were aware of the situation, but were just trying to make it appear other than it was in order to justify your plans. If I misread your intentions then clearly I apologise, but I still don't agree with your reasoning.

You've gone out of your way to voice your opinion, as hostile as it may have seemed, and I have enjoyed it.
It didn't help my tone perhaps that your opening lines seemed to imply that you knew more than anyone else.

It was pretty long, and clearly showed we do have something in common, and that's Passion for our Musical interests.
Absolutely. Sadly we do seem to disagree on fundamentals.

My intention was to help, but there would indeed be a Devil to Pay.
And Seriously, if anyone has contact with either Kozi or Ash, I'd be more than happy to work out a way to try and get CDs to sell for THEIR benefit. It could be my Mardi Gras coin for the music biz.
Their contact details are not a secret (although I am not sure whether the old website emails work any more). If you are really serious about helping why don't you try getting in touch with them? Perhaps you might really be able to offer great help. Assuming they are still interested in pursuing any activity at this point, I'm sure they would be really happy to hear from you.
 

Wandering_Fox

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I ordered the CD recently thinking that problems had been solved. I assumed that CCP had patched things up with EoD and this was why CCP was rereleasing the CD. That was the only reason I could see that CCP had e-mailed me again. Way back when, I sent in a money order, and it was returned to me because appearantly CCP had to pay more money then they thought they would have had to to. After reading this thread, I feel bad about buying the CD and I realized I was dead wrong. As for advertisement for this CD, I never saw any except on -Scape-, Industry, and EoD's website. CCP doesn't even sell it on their homepage anymore as far as I'm concerned. (This is also the first instance where I have seen a record lable selling perfume as well) I am not going to pretend to know the details about the contract, because I don't, but all the evidence I have seen points to EoD being completely screwed in the deal. I like the music on the CD, but I have to admit, it's kind of in the back of my collection because I feel bad for the bad being so screwed when they were so excited for their first official mini-album. It was a really good first attempt, even if I didn't like all of it, I still enjoy listening to it sometimes. We now know what CCP has done in the past, but it is obviously an honest mistake from EoD. They didn't know what CCP had done in the past, and that's not a surprise, because it's really not something a lable is going to advertise. It's true they could have done the research, but...

I hope they are able to find a new lable. They'll probably never relelease the Nervous and Innocence mini-album agian as the rights do belong to CCP, but they have plenty of songs to make a better CD =) An honest question, would there be a huge problem with the band just going under Kozi's lable?
 

Camuflagem

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Wandering_Fox wrote:
An honest question, would there be a huge problem with the band just going under Kozi's lable?
I think that they (eod's management or haruhiko) wouldn't appreciate much this idea, because since the begining they were aiming to release the cd through an european goth label.
 

mort

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What Camuflagem said. They could have set up another label though for the EOD releases. There were a lot of things that they could have done differently, but being accepted as part of the scene and respected as such was so important to them that I believe they let it get in the way of good management way too often. It is hard though, trying to be accepted as what you are (or would like to be) and not judged by where you come from in a world which keeps on looking at you as an outsider. I sympathise and I understand, but it's also frustrating when you can see so many things that could have happened differently with everyone a winner.
 

Flatliner

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Their contact details are not a secret (although I am not sure whether the old website emails work any more). If you are really serious about helping why don't you try getting in touch with them? Perhaps you might really be able to offer great help. Assuming they are still interested in pursuing any activity at this point, I'm sure they would be really happy to hear from you.

I have tried contacting them before, and got no reply.
I don't know if it's because I wrote in english, or they didn't have the time or what it was. But I have tried to get in touch with them. If anyone has had some decent success talking with them, feel free to let me know which avenue of contact you used.
 

Flatliner

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Actually, perhaps N+I isn't the avenue we should even be pursuing. They were working on a full album, and now those songs are sitting around collecting Dust. They also had some other songs that dind't make it on N+I, like you killed me first (a personal favourite of mine.)

What if we were able to convince them to let us release the last of their songs? It would be a small run limited edition, the band would get compensation up-front and back end compensation.

The art would be done for free. My partner is an awesome digital artist who has done the covers for Noise Unit, Psyclon Nine, Synthetic Minister, Soulscar, LSD and others.
Here's a few examples:

537_large_image.jpg

294_large_image.jpg


Getting a webpage put together would be easy as well.

I could get copies out to DJs no problem. We've got a reputable webshop to dispense the CDs. The cost to produce CDs in Canada is very reasonable.

There's obviously a very dedicated fanbase here, and maybe we can try to convince them to release one last CD so their final works can see the light of day, they can be treated well, and make some money off their work.

Ha, and depending on their contract with CCP, they may be able to license their songs outside of Europe to someone else. Then we could use the N+I songs too, and release a better version of them, packaged with new songs and maybe some remixes if we need to pad it a bit more.
 

Kinsao

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Wow, there's been a lot of talking here since I was last on! :shock:

I was confused at first, because I had thought, there is no other way to obtain this CD, except from Alfred, and obviously no one wants him to get anything out of it, yet it seems like whatever is done, the band still doesn't get anything out of it either. :/

What we really need to do, is capture and torture him until he reveals the whereabouts of his stash of N+I, and then... but I digress.

Reading through everything, Flatliner's last idea sounds like about the best bet. :) Because there's no properly 'ethical' answer to the question... not and get hold of the CD. It's either give up hope of ever getting a real copy, or bite the bullet and do the 'unethical' thing by getting one off Alfred (even if indirectly). :/
 

Kirrus

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I really wish this isn't the end yet :(
What Flatliner suggested sounds like a good idea.
 

Geisha

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Your proposal sounds great, Flatliner. :) The best of luck - I hope it works out!
 

Camuflagem

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if you can get eod to release another cd, i will certainly support this and buy this cd too. Well, good luck , i hope they will accept the deal.
 
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