.

shazzer · Dec 6, 2009

hmm for Germans the romaji are pretty easy to pronounce because our pronounciation is similar to the Japanese one.

Therefore for us the romaji are great. I guess they just took the middle way of a lot of languages. (there is also another transcript expect the hepburn one, but I do not know whether this one is better for English speaking people or not).

Elec · Dec 6, 2009

It depends on what you're trying to show. Are you just trying to spell out something phonetically? Are you trying to approximate what the native language looks like? Are you studying something linguistically? The various romanization systems each set out to do something different.

However, I am 100% against the one that uses 'si, ti, tu', etc. as well as anything with double oo's where　~おう would be or any vowel with a stupid line over it.

Iskanderia · Dec 6, 2009

shazzer wrote:
I guess they just took the middle way of a lot of languages.

That makes sense.

Elec wrote:
It depends on what you're trying to show. Are you just trying to spell out something phonetically? Are you trying to approximate what the native language looks like? Are you studying something linguistically? The various romanization systems each set out to do something different.

I get what you're saying. I'm thinking more about the kind of romanization we see around us all the time in America for stuff like brand names, for instance, which is romanized for phonetic pronunciation purposes I'm assuming.

I'm extremely far from being an expert, but I'm pretty sure Suzuki isn't actually pronounced su-zu-key as the spelling might indicate. Although what Shazzer said might explain why it's spelled that way.

Einherjer · Dec 6, 2009

shazzer: after reading your posts again, I would not recommend that book because you will probably find the same faults with it as the one you used (about having to use a dictionary to look up linguistic terms) and you should probably get a book that doesn't use stupid romanization

and this is for iska: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwv_vPIL4IQ

can't touch daisuke @ 1:05

Iskanderia · Dec 6, 2009

Einherjer wrote:
and this is for iska: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwv_vPIL4IQ

can't touch daisuke @ 1:05

Actually, they pronounce it more like it looks in that song, huh?

Also, this is a terrible song.

Einherjer · Dec 6, 2009

^^but a beautiful dance

navate · Dec 7, 2009

Iskanderia wrote:
Most English-speakers mispronounce Japanese words, I think, because they are just pronouncing them the way that they are spelled in Romaji.

I think a biiig problem is the fact that we automatically think in "English mode" when we see foreign words.

We have no "kyo" sound in our language, so Tokyo is pronounced "toe kee oh" because that's the most logical way to say it to an English speaker. When you learn a language, you need to completely re-program yourself for intonation and syllable use. Not everyone realizes that and that's how you get people going "wa-tashy wa" and "ka-why dis nay". "watashi" is a completely logical way to romanize わたし, but people are still going to miss the fact that it needs to be pronounced distinctly: wa ta shi.

Even though Japanese pronunciation is REALLY straightforward once you know the rules... you still gotta know the rules. Unfortunately those rules are a bit awkward for English speakers.

Elec: I can live with the o with a line because yeah, it's a long o... but double oo's AAAAAUGH WHYYY.

Berserk · Dec 7, 2009

I don't see what makes 'oo', 'ou' and 'ō' any different. If you know that 'oo' isn't supposed to be a diphthong like it is in the word 'loon', and the same for 'ou', then they should pretty much sound the same when you read them. And the 'ō' makes sense, because you're in a sense making the 'o' sound "longer", but it isn't exactly a "long 'o' " the way we think of it in English, is it? I think seeing two vowels together kind of puuushes the sound out of you the way the Japanese say it more than 'ō' (which is the sound of the letter 'o' in "note") does.

Basically, though, no English speaker should assume anything is pronounced like English just because it uses the Roman alphabet. I don't know a lick of Japanese, but if I'm not mistaken in what I've said, I think this is all fairly obvious.

inertia · Dec 7, 2009

Berserk wrote:
I don't see what makes 'oo', 'ou' and 'ō' any different. If you know that 'oo' isn't supposed to be a diphthong like it is in the word 'loon', and the same for 'ou', then they should pretty much sound the same when you read them. And the 'ō' makes sense, because you're in a sense making the 'o' sound "longer", but it isn't exactly a "long 'o' " the way we think of it in English, is it? I think seeing two vowels together kind of puuushes the sound out of you the way the Japanese say it more than 'ō' (which is the sound of the letter 'o' in "note") does.

IMO the big problem is that Japanese has 2 "long/double O"s which sound the same but are spelled differently in kana.
おお = oo
おう = ou

If a student starts out with romaji, any system which does not distinguish between these kana spellings is going to become a handicap in the future when the student suddenly has to re-learn how to spell a bunch of words. That's a nasty trick to play on a student and unfortunately a lot of introductory books do it. Both the "ō" and "oo for every long o" systems make it harder than it needs to be.

Lem · Dec 7, 2009

My class was very quick to throw out Romaji but my school was also under budget and we never had any Japanese books either ::meev::

So I don't have any good suggestions on books haha. I would of loved to take Japanese in college but then I would of been buying a $50 or $100 book at the student store ::meev::

Garnet in the Eden · Dec 7, 2009

for the people who want to learn Japanese : why do you want to learn Japanese?

Amatsu · Dec 7, 2009

Garnet in the Eden wrote:
for the people who want to learn Japanese : why do you want to learn Japanese?

It's a beautiful language, spoken & written. It feels really cool to speak it, too. It has a nice flow to it in my opinion.

holylampposts · Dec 7, 2009

I want to learn it because I've got a japanese friend who is losing her ability to speak english.

Berserk · Dec 7, 2009

inertia wrote:
IMO the big problem is that Japanese has 2 "long/double O"s which sound the same but are spelled differently in kana.
おお = oo
おう = ou

Oh, I see. Spelling stuff. Maybe I should actually try to learn kana ::meev::

The links Cerceaux gave look really useful, I might give it a shot.

GitE wrote:
for the people who want to learn Japanese : why do you want to learn Japanese?

I wanted to learn Japanese because I used to think all the coolest bands ever were Japanese

Plus I genuinely appreciate haiku and think Japanese is an incredible language. But then again, if I learned every language I thought was incredible... Mostly it must've been that first reason XD

Two things made me decide not to learn it:
1. Not offered in high school, so no way to practice speaking with people.
2. I wanted to learn French. I felt Japanese would siphon off the time I spent practicing French even though there was little real reason why I should pursue Japanese over French to begin with. I was more advanced in French, I had a French teacher and French classmates, I loved the French culture I was being connected to through the language, and it just made sense.

Now I think I might try to learn a bit of Japanese, though.

Lem · Dec 7, 2009

Garnet in the Eden wrote:
for the people who want to learn Japanese : why do you want to learn Japanese?

Meh, I had a choice between French, Spanish and Japanese. Most of my friends where in Japanese, I also had pressure from my Grandma to take Japanese and I like typical Japanese cartoons and music anyway. To be honest I always wanted to learn Russian and I did some studying of it while in school. I didn't get that far into it since I didn't have anyone to work with or to practice with and well that was that

flowersofnight · Dec 8, 2009

Sort of on-topic: check this out from the most recent JLPT Level 1 ::meev::

http://magweasel.com/2009/12/06/evangel ... #more-1147

Amatsu · Dec 8, 2009

flowersofnight wrote:
Sort of on-topic: check this out from the most recent JLPT Level 1
http://magweasel.com/2009/12/06/evangel ... #more-1147

Is that what the JLPT is like? That seems annoying.

I guess most tests are.

faith · Dec 8, 2009

That's really biased.

So the otaku's going to pass with flying colors while the pacifistic business professional who hates anime bombs?
BOOH I call racism or something.

Amatsu · Dec 8, 2009

faith wrote:
That's really biased.

So the otaku's going to pass with flying colors while the pacifistic business professional who hates anime bombs?
BOOH I call racism or something.

Eh, I've never seen that anime, and I think I understand it... xD

The answer is 4, right? If I'm wrong, then I guess IT IS RACIST! ::meev::

flowersofnight · Dec 8, 2009

faith wrote:
So the otaku's going to pass with flying colors while the pacifistic business professional who hates anime bombs?
BOOH I call racism or something.

I actually found it refreshingly honest that they acknowledge who's most likely to be taking the exam XD

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